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I clicked a link on the web site and within a few minutes I was listening to the moderator’s voice, saw his charts on the screen, and could read text of comments by the other traders in the room. I had never been in a chat room before.

I heard the voice of a very calm, relaxed man that had just taken 50 or more ticks out of the YM (Dow mini contract). Dozens of traders posted their comments into the room. The posts were of the nature of congratulations for the winning trade, but more so as of congratulating the moderator for such a wonderful, magic indicator, and all the wonderful trading patterns on this magic indicator that were given to all. I observed for an hour or so. I noticed that there were no prices on any of the three charts that were posted. He kept repeating, like a mantra, that you didn’t need prices, the CCI was all you needed.

The magic indicator being used was the old CCI, or Commodity Channel Index developed by Donald Lambert and introduced to the trading community around 1980. I was quite familiar with it, as I had tried using it several times in the past. In fact, I heard the inventor speak at a trading conference shortly after the indicator was introduced into early charting software. But it looked different. It filled the screen, as there were no price bars on the chart. And it had lots of colors that I wasn’t used to seeing. There were histogram bars that changed color with the trend. Very innovative. There were many color changes on the horizontal reference lines as well. Also, instead of displaying just the plus and minus hundred lines along with the actual CCI line, which was the main point to the formula, there were also the 200 lines, and curiously the zero line. Lambert didn’t feel the need to display the zero line, as it was just a simple detrended moving average. But there it was on the chart with red and green dots. The moderator kept referring to the zero line as support. I guess it is, in a way, since a moving average with the proper length can act as support. But I also noticed the parameter was set to 14, which is way to short a cycle to filter out the noise. I always understood that the CCI lookback period should be set to use one full cycle, despite some misleading information on some web sites that I explain in more detail in “CCI – Making it Better,” located in the Indicators section of this blog. So why was a very short 14-bar parameter being used? Nobody in the room questioned the use of such a short parameter. It did give a lot more movement in the CCI line to create the patterns, but I felt they were mostly based on noise, therefore a successful pattern was likely just a random occurrence. But what did I know only being in the room for an hour.

I then posted my opinion about the zero line and the short parameter. No answer on the short parameter, but to the zero line question I got this: “the zero line is not a moving average, it is where the support comes into the market NOW.” He emphasized the word “now” with a touch of irritation in his otherwise calm voice. But what was more interesting, there was a barrage of nasty, venomous comments to me from other traders in the room, chastising me for posting such a dumb comment. After all, this indicator is indeed a magic indicator. Logic doesn’t have to apply. How could I question and degrade it by saying the zero line, which seemed like the most important component, at least in the signals that were being called by the moderator up to that point, was nothing more than a simple moving average. Never mind the fact that a simple moving is in the second line of the CCI formula. I felt like I was the only person in the room that knew this fact.

After listening, quietly this time, for another hour, the moderator made the claim that he invented the use of applying patterns to an indicator. Not only did he make such a claim, but dozens of people typed in praise and thanks. Maybe he just meant he invented using patterns on this particular indicator. He did rename all the patterns, but I recognized a head and shoulders pattern on the indicator, which Martin Pring had written about on the RSI many years before this chat room existed. That bounce off the zero line was a rehash of Raschke’s bounce off the 20 ema and a similar trigger pattern using the 310 oscillator. The failure of the bounce off the zero line, as well as a divergence pattern that had a different name, were all described many years earlier by George Lane and others. I could go on with many more references to patterns on indicators that are well documented in the technical trading literature of many years ago. There was really nothing new here. On the positive side it seemed he did an excellent job of categorizing many different patterns and putting them all together into a package that would be more readily accessible to new traders. So that was good. And there were many good concepts offered on trading in general and money management. And there was wisdom from an experienced person. He would say it would take a person ten years to become a doctor, or some other profession, so why does a trader think he can make a million dollars with two weeks training. That was excellent advice. The chat room was upbeat and positive, as long as I didn’t post any dumb questions of course. I thought I should continue on.

I then thought I had better read the manual, which was in a PDF file on the web site. I learned from the trading manual that the color changes on the horizontal lines were some confirming indicators that had nothing to do with the CCI. One was a red light, green light idea based on a moving average. On the zero line was a red light, green light based on what they called a least squared moving average, which is actually a regression curve. There is no moving average in the formula. But I kept my mouth shut this time, or I should say my fingers. I did start to notice that nobody in the room questioned anything. I asked a few technical questions but most were ignored. When I persisted I sometimes got a private message from somebody that apparently was monitoring the text chat. When I argued with or questioned anything that the moderator said I would get a message telling me to knock it off. This set off some alarms. It partly answered the question why nobody was questioning anything.

Then I noticed that they kept putting up 133 tick charts on certain markets. Most of the time the charts were 3 or 5 minute. I simply asked why they chose that particular number, just out of curiosity. The main moderator said it was a fibonacci number. I knew that wasn’t so. The closest fibonacci number was 144. Not that it makes any difference. I made the mistake of being nit picky again and posted that 133 was not a fibonacci number. I got another private message saying that the next time I questioned the master that I’d be permanently booted from the room. I was never to question anything the master said, and that what he said was correct. In addition to that, a dozen or more posts from other traders said that I was wrong. A couple people came to my defense and said that I was correct. I hope they didn’t get booted. The moderator stuck by his belief that 133 was a fib number.

I know these points are not really important. If the trading methodology is sound I can forgive someone thinking that 133 is a fib number or that a 14 period simple moving average is to be regarded as major support now, or at some other time. But there was one thing being said over and over in the room by most of the moderators and essentially all the participants that bothered me. That is that the CCI is a leading indicator. And it seemed to be universally accepted as the truth. He would show examples where it looks like the CCI gives a trend line break ahead of price breaking a trendline. (He would only temporarily display prices just to illustrate his point.) Now, back to reality for a minute, it is mathematically impossible for a derivative set of calculations to lead the function from which they are derived. Anything said to the contrary is trying to redefine the rules of math. I’m sure what he was trying to say, and illustrate, was that momentum can (at times) lead price. It can in a non-trending market. A pure momentum indicator, such as rate of change, would show this in exactly the same way. Momentum will appear to lead price if the market behaves like a perfect sine wave and you use the correct input into the indicator, which reflects that cycle. Given these conditions a momentum indicator will appear to anticipate the turning points. So at times, somewhat randomly I might add, an indicator will get synched up with the cycle in price and appear to lead. But it is not leading. Nothing leads price. Price is the leader. Every calculation derived from price will lag and follow. Momentum only seems to lead in a cyclical environment where the cycle is in synch with the parameter of the indicator.

And what about trading the CCI with no prices on the chart? To me this seemed like telling someone who’s driving down the freeway at 70 mph to cover up the windshield. Like a voice booming down from the heavens saying you don’t need to see the road, all you need is the GPS. It’s a leading indicator. It is leading where you’re car is trying to go. Why not simply look out the window and drive like a normal person. Why take the very thing you are trading off the screen so you can only see an indicator that is derived from it. The only explanation the moderator offered as to why you don’t need prices is that they’ll scare you out of positions. That might be true, but if you are afraid to drive, covering up the windshield won’t help you conquer your fear. On the other side of the coin, and perhaps a better explanation but one that was never discussed in the room, is that looking at the CCI is actually looking at price. The actual CCI line is nothing more than price as represented by the average of the high, the low, and the close of the current bar. It is then detrended around the same simple moving average as used in the input parameter. Then the resulting price is skewed so that approximately 80% of the price points reside within the plus and minus hundred lines. (There is more explanation on this in the CCI articles in the Indicators section of this blog.) But back to the first side of the coin, by doing this you miss seeing the structure of the market. You can’t get a sense of the size of an impulse move, or the character of a consolidation, or the swing points that are being tested and re-tested, and the resulting success or failures of these tests. You don’t see the market generated information in the pure sense. The CCI is just an indicator. It indicates. Price is the important thing on the chart. A good trader can trade without indicators and only watch price. Everyday in the room the mantra of not needing prices was chanted many times. Every time I would cringe. Each time there would be a flurry of posts thanking the moderator for making them take their prices off the screen. They would claim that their trading had become so much better without looking at prices. I did not dare post my protest.

I had a hard time believing that nearly a thousand people would accept everything that was being said. Accepting it so readily. Were they all drinking Kool-Aid? It was an interesting study on the need to believe in a leader, or a guru. On the need to believe that someone has the answer and to turn over one’s own sense of logic to a stranger just based on what is being said. On the need to keep a dream alive in the face of hard facts.

But I persevered. I felt a calm by narrowing my study to one indicator. And his trading results certainly looked more encouraging than mine. I would get the recaps after market close on days that they were available. Nearly every trade in the recap was profitable. On the rare trade that didn’t work out the loss was usually only a tick or two. I can forgive someone not knowing what a fib number is if I can learn this kind of trading performance. I sometimes didn’t pay close attention during trading hours, so at first I didn’t question the recaps. I was trying to trade my own way and just kept a small bit of my attention on the chat room when these signals were being called in real time. But then I started to pay close attention, as the results in the recap were far better than my results. I tried to write down the trades as they were being called, and then tried to reconcile them in the recap after the market closed. I found that most of the time the trades were hinted at in real time, or if called directly, there would be a hedging comment that could later be referred to if the trade went the other way, so either way the trade was profitable. To be fair, this room was meant to educate traders, not to call out trades. It was OK to discuss a pattern setting up and saying aggressive traders might take this or that trade, or reasons for not taking it. Not every set-up was right for every trader. Some traders might wait for a better signal. If a trade went the wrong way you would be given the option of getting out, or parameters for managing the trade if left on. This was all fine. The point of the live chat was to discuss the patterns and to educate, so discussing the pros and cons of each setup was good. But I began to notice in the recap that the winning trades were selected very carefully out of the real time comments. Nearly every trade called could later be called a winner if you hedged every comment. Again, nobody questioned any of this. There was only a short time from the live commentary to the recap. Was I the only one who noticed the discrepancies?

At this point I decided to do my own testing. I had been in the room long enough to know every pattern, every nuance used by every moderator. I had been to two live events with lectures and real time trading. I was good at TradeStation programming and had the data to test. I programmed everything. Every nuance. Every rule explained in the manual, and every nuances talked about in the room and the live events. I took each pattern individually so I could find which patterns had profitable or encouraging tendencies. I programmed each indicator to use exit rules based on the CCI rules as described in the manual, as well as to just test all different tick amounts for stops and profit targets. Some of the patterns were being verbally touted in the room as having a 90% probability of a successful outcome, and being able to use a two to one or better profit to loss profit factor. I knew this was nearly impossible but those stats were reiterated by many whom were the most respected traders in the room. I had to know for sure if there was anything to the claims.

For my tests I decided I needed thousands of samples over many types of market conditions. I restricted my testing to three of the markets the main moderator focused on. I tested on the two time frames that were mostly used at that time, which were 3 minute and 5 minute bars. I decided to test each of the patterns on five years of data, and broke them up into one year segments. I was just looking for profitable tendencies and robustness. I used bar close for entry. No commissions or slippage were taken out, so I assume perfect fills with no trading costs. I know this is unrealistic, but I was just looking for tendencies. The trading manual said there were three different entries: enter on close, enter last 20 seconds of bar, or enter as pattern appears even if in beginning of bar. The most reliable for programming accuracy was to just test on bar close. I couldn’t program TradeStation to assume a fill 20 seconds before a 5 minute bar painted. I figured if there was a positive tendency using bar close, then in real time I could probably improve my results by entering early, but the test should still show a positive tendency using bar close.

After programming everything into TradeStation I tested the signals by hand, covering several hundred signals on each pattern, just to make sure my programming caught all the signals based on the rules, and didn’t create signals that shouldn’t have been there. I was able to get TradeStation to recognize the CCI patterns with almost perfect accuracy. Even if there were an occasional glitch, I figured with such a large sample size that the results would be accurate enough to know if there were any profitable tendencies using any of these patterns. An early stumbling block was the red, yellow, green light indicator that allowed or disallowed the signal with the bounce off the zero line. That was proprietary. The indicator was available, but not the code so I was unable to put the code into my strategies. I figured out the formula by trial and error, so now had all the tools to test.

After spending weeks and reams of paper for my printouts, I found that none of the patterns resulted in a profit in any of the previous five years when tested mechanically. The high percentage trade I referred to earlier actually lost money, and had closer to 30% winning trades, about a third of what was being verbally touted. I’m sure the true believers would doubt my programming. Maybe there were some rules I missed. If so they weren’t posted on the web site or talked about in the chat room. The bounces off the zero line fared slightly better, but still far less than 50%, some years closer to 30%. Results less reliable than the flip of a coin. The two divergence patterns were the lowest percentage of winners. Some of these patterns I could get to show around 60% winners if I removed the stop loss, and then set the profit objective very close, something like 3 or 5 ticks. But of course that lost a lot of money, and that was without calculating commission and slippage costs.

To summarize my testing: nothing worked. Nothing came close to a favorable tendency.

I tried to tell other people in the room about my research and the dismal results. Most of them wouldn’t hear it. They didn’t want to hear the truth. They were too invested in the method, and they had to believe they would eventually become successful if only they would hang on a bit longer, attend one more live event, just learn that secret that’s just around the corner.

I did notice some defection in the room, as there was another trader who seemed to have a better approach. He was gaining a following, which was no surprise if my dismal testing results were indicative of other traders account balances. I then programmed his new system into TradeStation and tested it. It was based on some sound theories, namely extending the CCI parameter on one of the components to something more realistic than 14, although he did keep the 14 parameter in part of the equation. But my mechanical testing still did not result in a positive return. It was better, but still a loser, at least trading it mechanically. Maybe he was successful using it as a guide to his discretionary trading, but programmed as presented it was a loser, despite the hype. He was eventually booted from the room. Although the results of the testing did not result in anything useable, it encouraged me to do further research, which lead me to using a much longer CCI parameter, and eventually an adaptive parameter, and to adjust my rules based on the different character of using such a parameter. (I have more on this topic in the Indicators section of this blog.)

Testing any system mechanically will most likely result in a negative outcome. I do not believe that a system has ever existed, or that ever will exist, that you can program into a computer that will trade a market profitably over the long run. There might be some arbitrage system that can work, but as far as calling market direction with a net position, I just don’t think there is such a system. So, I didn’t expect to find a system I could trade mechanically and automatically. If such an approach were possible someone would have it, they would be at the golf course all day, and they would come home and count their profits. Eventually they would probably own the world. But if a system has a chance of being a reasonable guide to a discretionary trader, which is what I think is the best someone can hope for, it should at least show results better than a coin flip.

You might assume my time spend in this room a dead end or waste of time. That maybe I thought that this guru did have the answer to trading success. I knew better than to expect this. The sad part is that so many other people don’t know better. They are told something that they want desperately to believe, and they believe it. They don’t test it. They don’t question it. They believe blindly. They invest much time and money, and then they get past the point where they simply want to believe. Now they are too invested and they have to believe. They will disregard all common sense and all facts and proof in an effort to keep the dream alive.

Trading is hard work, and every trader has to find what fits his or her own personality and temperament. Nobody is going to easily give it away, whether in a free chat room, or a paid room or seminar, or a so-called trading school. There’s a whole industry out there that supply traders with tools and education. Much of it is good. Most of it is a waste, taught and promoted by people who are not successful using the approach themselves. Ultimately, one has to do one’s own work. And everything should be questioned. Everything should be tested. Every indicator formula should be understood. There are only so many ways one can apply math to the few prices represented on each bar of a chart. There is no magic indicator.

My experience through all of this did result in some good. I don’t regret a minute of the time I spent in this chat room. I met many people locally at meetings. I felt a sense of belonging to a community of traders in an otherwise solitary pursuit. Being in the room and questioning everything helped encourage research. I focused on one indicator longer than I ever had in the past, which resulted in developing trading rules on patterns that I would have probably overlooked. And the patterns in the chat room, even though weren’t original or profitable as presented, did become more useable to me once I changed the indicator and adapted them to my trading style. I think most of the patterns were based on sound theories. Certain nuances start to pop out when you see that same thing appear over and over. You miss these if you try to view too many indicators. Before being in the room I viewed too many indicators and spent much more time frozen in indecision. So I did learn some things by being in the chat room. I have tried other chat rooms briefly and in comparison I think this room is probably one of the better rooms to be in, as long as you think for yourself, do your own testing, and you are not looking for a guru to follow. I also learned about psychology and the mind of the traders that I compete with every day.

If you found this article helpful and would like to buy me a cup of coffee or make a contribution to help fund this site, please click on the coffee cup. Thanks Doug Tucker

32 Comments to “The Chat Room with the Magic Indicator” on 13 Aug 2007 at 10:19 am1Ralph Excellent. I was in this CCI chatroom for several months. I only saw boasting and claims of winning trades, mostly posted late. I’m glad it is being exposed here and some other blogs. From my experience I have to agree with what’s said above.

on 14 Aug 2007 at 12:47 pm2adam I have had the same experiences with over 8 years Trade Station programming and trading system design. My experiences in trading system design have given me invaluable lessons. I use mechanical systems extensively, however, I use them because I know how and why they work. One such systems uses the CCI but no ZLR trades here – I get an average of 100 points a trade and trade rarely -to me a ZLR of 4 points -that’s just noise and a waste of time. I can be contatce at adamcox@ozemail.com.au if any one wants to laise with me.

on 14 Aug 2007 at 3:37 pm3Woodies CCI technique. – Page 2 – Traders Laboratory […] and type in “day trading chat rooms” and the first link is the one. Otherwise try this: http://tuckerreport.com/articles/magic-indicator/ Hope this helps. If you believe what’s in here, and I do, it might save you a lot of time and money […]

on 14 Aug 2007 at 6:16 pm4**STEINITZ ** BACKTEST results reveled here – Page 19 – Forex Trading […] is interesting read on the folly of ‘experts’ ? The Chat Room with the Magic Indicator. The group dynamic is remarkably similar to what we have going on here. Zup, don’t worry about that […]

on 16 Aug 2007 at 7:10 am5**STEINITZ ** BACKTEST results reveled here – Page 21 – Forex Trading […] stops anymore… When people point him to this article he starts slamming them with hammers. Tucker Report ? The Chat Room with the Magic Indicator What more to say? Just makes me […]

on 21 Aug 2007 at 4:44 pm6shepton I had a similar experience. The “Vegas Trade” was supposedly the newest of the patterns. It had been revealed at a recent conference for a fee. Woody was talking about it all morning and I asked for more information. After telling me that it was only fair that those who “paid” should be given a pw to an explination for the trade. I asked why could there not be a room then for those who could discuss the trade as most in the room did not understand the topic. “Woodies CCI” room is “free” after all. A torrent of abuse was let out against me. I was booted from the room numerous times.

on 18 Sep 2007 at 8:53 pm7How to Use CCI in a Short Time Frame – Forex Forum […] I would be cautious of this indicator/group. At least read this review before putting too much time into it: Tucker Report ? The Chat Room with the Magic Indicator […]

on 12 Oct 2007 at 8:51 pm8GC3 Interesting how easy it is to points fingers at someone else. Woodie provides a chat room for free, promises nothing, tells everyone to absolutely do your own stats, don’t trade ANY realy money without a trading plan, provides free support, hides nothing including his willingness to admit failed trade and yet people are complaining that what he does is poor trading strategy. He teaches money management for free, you link up with some of the kindesst people in the world, and provides a forum for all your questions and people still complain. I paid big $$$ to others who are highly regarded, I paid Big $$$ to others to be in a chat room charging big monthly with zero results, I know a person who paid money to a trading guru who charges $10,000.00 to mentor you for 3 days and still isn’t profitable. If you get something for nothing you can’t complain. It’s better than getting nothing for something which is what most people get from most trading outfits. I have a friend who paid $$$ for an automated system that loses money every day. Stick in the room for at least 6 weeks and listen, then decide for yourself. Trading isn’t easy however at least Woodie will point you in the right direction. The rest is up to you. GC

on 12 Oct 2007 at 9:22 pm9Doug Tucker GC3, thanks for the comment. You make some good points. The money management is excellent. The people in the room are great and supportive. There was much useful trading wisdom offered. The chat room is free, but there is relentless promotion of products and other sources of revenue, which is fine. He should be compensated. I’m not sure how much willingness there is to admit failed trades if you follow along closely. I was in the room for far more than six weeks. I was in the room for nearly three years. But as I said in my article, I don’t regret a minute of it. I learned a great deal. I met many great people who are now friends. I did try to point out some of the positives, but I think it fair to also point out some things traders should be aware of. Even with the negatives that I pointed out, I do think the room is a good place to learn, and a far better place then many of the expensive paid rooms. My tone in the article was probably a little too harsh. I was trying to make the point that traders shouldn’t be looking for a guru, and have to do their own thinking. I do appreciate your comments. Doug

on 23 Nov 2007 at 11:50 am10Alex I’ve followed this website since its paypal days. I’ve noticed that many of the moderators admit that they are not profitable. However I respected Mr. Wood’s philosophy and motto of “traders helping traders” I observed with some passive interest the commercialization of woodiescciclub. His motto now should change to TRADERS HELPING TRADERS FOR A SMALL FEE” Make your own trading decisions don’t spend thousands of dollars on someone else’s system. Alex

on 05 Dec 2007 at 9:15 pm11John Terrific article. Thank you. I just visited that site after two years and saw that there is now a $900, multi-CD course. Plus a ton of commercial links. KACHING!!! I’ve always been suspicious of the “traders helping traders” mantra. It may have been that way AT FIRST. (I was a member back in 2002 when things were just starting to pick up and we added a second room, so I actually got in LATE.) I think BEFORE ME that philosophy was truly at work. But then the place became something else. Yes, drinking Kool Aid is an excellent comparison. Jim Jones was all about Christians helping Christians.

on 18 Dec 2007 at 6:53 am12squashfan Dear Doug,

very interesting article, indeed. I follow woodies webside for almost a year (in November 2007 Woodie changed to range bars from 5 minute charts). I appreciate your effort to analyse what is being presented there (I did not do that to such an extent).

As many others, I have some reservations to what has been said there. Nevertheless, Woodie always put an emphasis to say to new traders to make their own stats, develop and write a trading plan, and follow a strict money managment. I think this is the most important message from him, no matter if I decide to use his system or not (I trade cci in a modified form). Trading is a hard business and one has to know what he is doing (that is why most of traders fail). Best regards, Squashfan

on 20 Dec 2007 at 10:55 am13Doug Tucker Here’s a link I just found that might be of interest to some: http://mplayoptions.com/cci-monkeys.html

on 29 Dec 2007 at 6:00 pm14Ed Edwards The truth is that %90 of people will lose money even when given a winning strategy to trade. The CCI system is a trend following indicator period. Take the trade set your stop and 1st target then walk away, then when you hit first target move stop to entry plus one and wait for CCI exit or stop out. It is vey boring and %90 of people cant stand to sit and wait for a signal so they take impulse trades and lose big because they dont set stops. Figure that out of one hundred trades you break even on costs on 90 trades and make your profit on the 10 runners that you hit. Thats only if you have enough confidence in your sytem to have several loseing days in a row at times. If you can say that you had a good week of trading even when you lost on 3 of 5 days and ended down %5 but followed your plan to the tee you might be ready to survive this journey.

Backtesting is worthless, This is a quote from the article above. “Testing any system mechanically will most likely result in a negative outcome. I do not believe that a system has ever existed, or that ever will exist, that you can program into a computer that will trade a market profitably over the long run.”

on 01 Jan 2008 at 3:05 am15Shepton HIT or high incidence trading is common place along with other forms of ‘algo’ based systems. Goldman has a team of programmers, and I assume the same re: other big firms. One person is responsible for has much as 5-10% of Naz volume–a programmer and former trader from KC. There are numerous articles about movement toward quantitative systems. Pit traders are moving to the screen. Retail traders have got to be nimble. MA’s and oscillators usually only make clear what already exists in price movement. CCI is overhyped by Woody. He ostracized Dr. Bob and anyone who doesn’t agree with him. The only way to learn to trade is to find out on your own. You can learn a lot from others but no one is going to hold your hand–and that’s what I see all the time, not just with Woody but in rooms everywhere. I’d being willing to bet that Woodie’s record for producing traders is no better than the standard accepted failure rate of 90-95%. It’s harsh but that’s what it is.

on 01 Jan 2008 at 3:16 am16Shepton Meant to drop a link: http://www.thetradenews.com/electronic-trading/algorithmic-trading

btw the ‘major firm’ employee with whom I am familiar got a %100 bonus this year. Cheers to him.

on 03 Jan 2008 at 10:17 pm17tim lost 80k trying to trade the cci, 2 years of struggle and finally pulled all the plugs out of my computer and shut it all down. I always thought it was my fault, which it is but… I guess I am a slow learner. still i did enjoy the people trying to make it in the room.

on 25 Jan 2008 at 11:46 am18Bastian I trade WCCI for about 2 years. I had the same experience as you have, but after 12-18 months I realized I can not take all the patterns mechanically (my results were the same as yours), I have to know the market, I have to have good MM and I have to trust to my system, but you can never take all te patterns you see. Im curious how did you program chop or how did you program days with small range that you wouldn’t normally trade, etc.. There is no indicator that you can just put into your computer and it will do all the work for you. And CCI is the same as all other indicator.

on 25 Jan 2008 at 5:18 pm19Doug Tucker Bastian, regarding small range first, I haven’t found an indicator that can predict when a small range bar will occur. I have a paint bar study that tells me when a daily bar range is the narrowest of the past 7 days. If the range narrows I expect the range to expand, so a narrow range bar puts me on the lookout for a wide range bar. But I haven’t found the reverse to be very helpful. Sometime a wide range bar, or two wide range bars will tilt the odds of the following bar being a narrow range, but there are many narrow range bars that are not preceeded by wide range bars. I look at a market profile bell curve that will indicate if the current bar forming looks like it will end up being a narrow range bar. If there is much rotation between the 30 minute period, that is much overlapping, the value area is very small relative to previous days, and the range so far is tight compared to the previous several sessions, then I assume a narrow range will continue. But you always have to be on the lookout for range expansion, even late in the day. The Connors/Raschke historical volatility might be worth exploring. I’m sure there lots of stuff on it if you google it. Also, John Hill has what he calls a “can trade” indicator that was in one of his books that tracks a certain kind of range contraction to allow opening range breakout types of trades. Regarding chop, I haven’t found any indicators that help anticipate when chop will begin. Most indicator have considerable lag. I’ve found the standard error bands on intra-day tick charts to be very helpful. If the bands are wide, price action is usually choppy. As the bands narrow the price action smooths out and usually trends, until a turning point, when the bands widen out again. Some traders use bollinger bands or the bollinger squeeze, which work just the opposite. I think they have too much lag, but you might look at them. I also have an average true range indicator that looks back several bars an compute two times the atr. As the atr widens, chop usually is starting. This is best on tick or volume charts I think. I’ve found intra-day minute based charts to be less useful. I also use an adaptive cycle measure by John Ehlers. As markets start to trend the cycle lengthens, and as chop begins, the cycle tightens. But there is lag before the indicator can figure out what’s going on. Also, and indicator like stochastics or rsi can sometimes warns of chop when swings of the indicators get compressed in amplitude and reverse quickly. I’ve tried ADX and find way too much lag to be of any use. R-squared is a little better, but still lags. I think observation, screen time, and experience are better than relying on an indicator to give a red light or a green light.

on 26 Jan 2008 at 2:30 am20Bastian Dough, I don’t use any indicator to see if the range is not tradable or if the market is in the chop. You are right, screen time and experience will tell you when you are not suppose to trade. But you can never put this into the computer, therefore I don’t believe that any “black box” can ever be profitable on the long run. It took me 12-18 months, 10 hours every day to know market and Im still learning. Not CCI but experience gives you an advantage over 90% of the traders. Unfortunately most of the traders are not willing to put so much time into learning one simple thing (it could be CCI, RSI, Stochastic or anything else, they all work the same), and they expect to be profitable after couple of months, and if they are not , they blame indicator, market, but never themself. And yes after that they are trying to find “guru” that give them profitable system. In the trading I don’t trade if potential of the trade is not at least 2 times bigger then my SL. Therefore I need good range but I dont need any indicator to see it. And of course if you are in the chop the potential will never by good enought to trade.

on 01 Feb 2008 at 4:39 pm21Tim Hello Doug, thank you for sharing you experience with CCI. I think if you look at the stats from this past year in the ER you will see there are alot of losing days…there is no “sweeping the losers under the carpet” so to speak. Maybe things have changed from when you were around but I know there is none of that now. I agree that Woodie’s system is not for everyone but that it can provide a good base for a trader. I say base because using other things to improve on the cci method can improve one’s bottom line, regardless of the “basic room rules” Woodie insists on. As mentioned by someone above Woodie has gone to “range bars”, a change that has improved the win% significantly. Good trading to all!

on 22 Feb 2008 at 11:44 pm22D. Anthony Doug, Well said…no matter what indicators a trader uses…keeping it simple and experience is the key to successful trading. I’ve been successful at trading using only a few indicators for the past 15 years. Although I find the CCI useful…I could never imagine trading without my price bars.

on 23 Feb 2008 at 4:00 pm23fred Woodie (Ken Wood) has an agenda – and it doesn’t involve helping traders. He is a dispicable piece of *%)$#. I don’t want to expend the energy typing out why – as I would install 16 paragraphs. So you’ll excuse me for using this forum as a catharsis.

Please stay away from that *&%##&….

All the best..

on 07 Mar 2008 at 7:09 pm24alex i agree w/ almost all you’ve written about that chatroom, except one major mistake: 133 IS a fib number, and 144 IS NOT. Fib numbers are those that cannot be devided by no other numbers but themselves only. 144 is divisible by 2. Thats some major mistake affecting your accountability, I’d correct that right away…. Regards Alex

on 07 Mar 2008 at 7:12 pm25alex MY BAD, MY BAD, MY BAD. im sleepy got it confused w/ Prime Numbers. I apologize…

on 07 Mar 2008 at 7:15 pm26Doug Tucker Alex, I do appreciate the comment, but 133 is not a fib number. Dividing by 2 has nothing to do with the fib sequence. You simply add the current number to the previous number. Just do a google search and you’ll see that I’m correct. Here is the sequence: 1+1=2 1+2=3 2+3=5 3+5=8 5+8=13 8+13=21 13+21=34 21+34=55 34+55=89 55+89=144 89+144=233 etc.

on 08 Mar 2008 at 3:11 pm27JJ I agree that backtesting is worthless….you can not program nuances into the computer and the value of screen time experience. The CCI as Woodie trades it today with the 6 basic patterns is profitable when every rule is followed. The chop zone and sidewinder indicators play a significant role in taking or not taking a trade. Now with range bar charts, the CCI is ever more valuable. Also….you can not program a runner into the backtesting equation. Its the runner that many take off too early that is the essence of this system. I was an all in and all out trader, however, Woodie has convinced me on the importance of staying with the trade until the CCI crosses back over the 100 line before getting out. This nuance has made me more $$ to handle my stop outs. On the ER…I use a 15 range bar…not time charts…but ranges as Woodie shows in his new system. The patterns are the same…but the stop is 17 ticks which is just outside the previous range bar. The initial target is 10 ticks and then a move to BE+1 for a no loss, no stress trade. The runner or the 2nd contract stays on until a stop of +1 is hit or the CCI crosses back over the 100 line…be it the -100 on a short of the +100 on a long. I have gotten 50 -100+ extra ticks with the runner that is the nuance that makes up for the stop outs. Even if the trades are 50/50….the money management of the runner gives you the profitability edge. Try to program that into Tradestation…oh wait…TS doesn’t even have Range bars for their charts. Hmmm…guess you will have to just watch and learn then. Go to Woodiescciclub.com and register for the forum. A trader named Ian does the stats for the ER. We have winners and we have losers. Its not magic, however, using the runner technique is the road to profitability…along with having a set stop. The trades in the FREE chat room are also pointed out plenty of time before the trade to allow you to set a buy stop or sell stop to get in . Sponsors are promoted in the room to help defray costs. You cant run these programs for free. I myself have learned all of this for FREE. I havent been to a TAL or bot the DVD’s. No one twists your arm to do that. Just get the FREE pdf of the system…and go to the FREE chat room and make up your own mind. Its not a scam in my book….however…ask yourself this if you are losing with Woodies CCI…..Did you really follow all the rules? or did u try to get in early or late. Bar close trading is the way to go. I have seen trades come within 1 tick of executing and/or stopping out. So don’t be a hero and lose your cash….Follow the rules…and just “trade the damn patterns”…as Woodie would say. By the way…this article is skeptical….cause woodie never used a tick chart….he has been on 5 min charts only for last few years ….now he is on range charts. Good Trading! JJ

on 10 Mar 2008 at 10:36 am28JJ-bis Hi JJ, why do you sound so familiar? Oh my mystake Mr Too TALL W, Too Arogant for everybody having another point of view, Hiding Under BS Name, Not Having Guts ….shall I continue ?? I just wonder how your wife tolerates such a piece of work ?

on 12 Mar 2008 at 10:09 pm29ed JJ, Why, in the name of all that’s reasonable, would you not make all your positions runners? Do the math home-skillet. If you want to pay the expense of stop out on 2 contracts, then Collect the profits on 2 contracts. The “Runner” mentalilty can not be supported by factual numbers, it is simply a sugar teat for ill-disciplined traders. If you disagree, show me the figures. (I asked you first. lol)

on 14 Mar 2008 at 12:56 pm30JJ ed:

Home-skillet….hmmm….thats a name I have never been called. The reason I don’t make both of my contracts runners………is because my psyche needs to feel that it is a being taken care when I put on a trade. If you take a payday early and put it in the bank, then I am content in having a winner with a no stress runner. If it comes back on me and stops me out, then I still feel good that I have taken a profit and look for another trade. However , if I have both as runners and it goes in my favor 10 ticks….then reverses and stops me out….I feel terrible as having let a winner turn into a loser. Not to mention I have a deficit to make up on the next trade. That pressure alone can make your future trades skewed as your trading in the hole so to speak. This method satifies the inner struggle between “fear and greed.” It is a balance that I feel comfortable with. JJ

on 03 Apr 2008 at 4:39 pm31Mrk I agree with JJ. In order to make AIAO trades work you have to know where the peak of the trade will occur or at least know where to place your profit targets to take the most the market has to offer. Even then you never really know when the ride is over. What can be worse then having a trade go your way only to see it stop out. I believe that can really screw you up mentally. Although stat’s do show that AIAO strategy are more profitable i find that taking something off builds confidence in your trading system and puts many at ease. As a new trader to WCCI I find this post enlightening. To this day I have not been able to replicate the results produced in the chat room. I have wondered if I was the one to blame since I didnt take all the setups. But now I see that maybe “trading the damn patterns” will need some descression. I appreciate everyone who has commented on their experiences and results with the system. It has made me wonder about WCCI and to be cautious as I continue my adventure as a trader. Its better to hear both sides of the story and then decide for yourself.

on 29 Apr 2008 at 3:07 pm32321 I first used W-CCi in Jan of 2005. I started off with a 5k account and in a matter of 3 months shrunk it to 1.5k. I heard he same junk. If youre aggressive, you’d of entered there, 20 sec before close, yak, yak, yak. I really don’t blame woodie. I can only look to myself. I knew nothing about taking stats and money management. Would knowing these things back in ‘05 have made the trades profitable? Absolutely not. It would probably have stopped me from getting to 1.5k that fast, but the “system” still sucked as many former moderators have attested to the fact that they, with all their vast CCi knowledge and trade-a-longs under their belts, were not able to make a living with it. Now, there were those few that did make money, but they were trading it differently and still these were only rumors. There was no real proof. Being very disheartened, I gave up on trading. In Decempber of ‘07 I decided to give trading another try. I came back to the only place I knew, woodie’s CCi temple. Being that the chat room was now free, it was even more of an incentive. Exciting things were happening. People were making money left and right, range bars, no more 20 sec entry crap. I learned about stat taking and money management. It seems the “system” has really improved. I thought I’d start live again with what was left. I started again about mid April. Dec, Jan, Feb, were good months for the CCi. Mar and April, not so much. I paper traded those months. I did well. I guess I started during a really crappy period because most of the trades were stop outs. With my 1.5k I only last 6 CCi days. I still have enough for one more trade before not being able to meet margins. An equity switcher program would have helped. BTW…PFG sucks as a broker. All the time I’d here talk of slippage. 5 ticks in some cases. I’m with Global Futures and I’m using the Turbo Trader 2 platform. Even when the prices were giratting like crazy because of the CCi’ers entering at the specific prices, I still never got a tick of slippage. I can’t really blame the CCI this time eaither. It’s clear I didn’t have enough for the draw down. But then again, how much would you let it go. I can only imagine how much the 2 contractors are losing. As for woodie, he’s defiantly a shady individual. Rumor has it that woodie doesn’t even trade futures which is what he’s always yakkin’ about. I asked a moderator if he traded for a living and woodie jumped down my throat about it not being any of my business. I just wanted to see if he practiced what he preached. He (woodie) also took down the stats because they were showing smaller and smaller profits month after month. They (official caht room stats) were only up 1.5k something by the end of March. They did have a good last day in march where they made around 1.5 k on 2 contracts which broguht the total to 3k something. He’s says that people were relying to much on them and that they were becoming lazy and not taking their own stats. I’m sure $600 in the red late Mar had nothing to do with it.

LESSONs (especially for newbies): Trading is not easy. No one will give you an edge. Learn, learn, learn, keep learning, and then learn some more. Screen time, screen time, screen time, and screen time. There is no magic indicator. Take what you can from where you can and don’t pay a penny if you don’t need to.

Would someone weigh in on the “new” W-CCi range bars? It looks more like a modified CCi now. But it’s still fixed like the 14 was on the time bars. These new settings seem to eliminate market noise though but they don’t do to well in tight ranges as we’ve been having.

There is a lot of controversy surrounding Woodie’s CCI. I would advise a newbie to be very suspicious. I never traded Woodies system live because mechanical system based trading was never for me but I have watched Woodies CCI for over a year and many things don’t sit right with me. One instance that raised a red flag was the drop out of ClintTX saying he was not able to make the CCI profitable. Another was my tinkering with coding the CCI into tradestation and finding no matter which way I tweaked things it was not making money and I confirmed this with other individuals as well. Mplays complete removal from the site also raised a red flag. If you check out Mplay’s site you will see his take on the things, Mplay Options. Honestly check the system, verify that it works, understand what you are getting yourself into, don’t trade live until you “get it”, and beware the smoke and mirrors of the Woodie’s following. Overall I think you can learn from the club but it might not be the lesson you expected.

http://tuckerreport.com/articles/magic-indicator/

In the previous posting on day trading currencies, I looked at the issue of how the effect of the brokers spread is magnified when you trade with tight profit targets (e.g. 10 pips) and how many beginner traders think that the popular systems out there are so good they can still overcome a house edge of 20% (i.e. a profit target of 10 pips and a 2 pip spread). In this post I will take one of the more popular day trading systems out there and show you that traders of this system certainly have no chance at over coming the house edge.

Woodies CCI

Woodies CCI Club is a web site that is run by Ken Wood (Woodie) and is devoted to using the Commodity Channel Index (CCI) indicator to trading a host of markets. One of the most popular applications of Woodies’ methods is of course in day trading currencies.

Woodie has spent years working the conference circuits promoting his methods for free, providing online access to free online chat groups and providing access to free online material. Woodie has done an awesome job of getting his trading community up and going. More recently Woodie has become much more commercially oriented and he is now working with PFG and is selling his material. I take my hat off to Woodie, he deserves a reward for all the hard work.

Based on the size of the community one would think that he must be promoting a method that really works. The reality is something quite different. If you go over to Mplayoptions website you will see story after story of traders who have failed to make money using Woodies’ methods. One of the most interesting ones is over at traders paradise blog, where there is a copy of a posting from one of Woodies’ forums from a bitter trader who just could not make it work.

The reaction by the Woodies community to these posts has been quite strong. Rather than trying to understand why these other traders are failing and use it to improve their trading, like obedient cult members they just “want” to believe this stuff works, just like we want to believe Rob Booker that we can achieve financial freedom on ten pips a day. I thought I might crack this Woodies CCI thing open, because it has much to teach us about why popular “day” trading systems don’t work.

Reality Checking Woodies CCI

Many of the traders out there have asked Woodie to “show them the money” and demonstrate by publishing independently audited copies of their trading account reports that he and his instructors actually makes money using Woodies CCI. Like any good cult, the upper echelons are never likely to do that and they are more likely to just dismiss the people who have failed as traders who failed to follow the rules.

However … Woodie promotes a method of trading based on the CCI alone and you don’t need to look at anything else. Therein lies the weakness in Woodies’ armour. If the trading decisions are made on CCI alone, then his trading methods should stand up to back testing, because that is what a computer does really well.

I have constructed a back test of the “zero line reject”, one of Woodies most popular trading methods. The ZLR works by looking for a pattern where the CCI spikes down towards the Zero Line on the CCI indicator and then bounces back up.

Here are the results for one year of trading the ZLR on the EUR/USD during the New York or London Trading Session on a 5 minute chart (assuming we give them the benefit of the doubt and have no spread or other transaction fees included). As you can see we have made 105 trades on the long and short sides, 44% of them are winners but they just don’t win enough per trade to make it profitable. Based on thse stats it does not surpise me that these traders are failing in droves.

Woodies CCI failing?

To understand what Woodies CCI is failing, you need to understand what the CCI actually is calculating. Very few retail traders, especially guys who hang out in Woodies’ forums even know how CCI works nor what the math is behind it.

The CCI indicator was originally developed by Donald Lambert to help identify cyclical turns in the futures markets. We actually don’t know much about CCI itself, because Don never really wrote down much about the indicator. We do know from the Woodies forums that Don was apparently a mathematician who was interested in using computers to test his ideas and we also know that Don never really considered himself a “trader”.

The CCI indicator is basically an oscillator which is intended to find the likely tops and bottoms of cycles in the markets. The formula is as follows:

Typical Price (TP) = (High +Low +Close)/3

CCI = ( TP – SMA(TP, n) ) / ( .015 x SMA(Abs(Diff(TP-SMA(TP,n), n)) )

Given that Don never really wrote much about the original indicator, we will never know what it was really intended to do. However, the numerator of the CCI formula seems to calculating how far above or below a simple moving average the price is and the denominator seems to be a convoluted way of figuring out if distance from the average is well above the average distance of the price from the average.

In other words, the underlying theory seems to be that when the price is well above an average it should “revert” to the mean. The ZLR is simply using a 14 bar CCI used to look for instances where price has reverted to the mean and provides entries on the hypothesis that price action will continue in the direction of the trend. Effectively, the ZLR entry is using a lot of convoluted math to “buy the dip”.

Let me write this a different way: Do you think that using 14 bar Simple Moving Average by itself is a good way of trading? And do you think that if the price bounces off the 14 bar SMA does it actually provide a legitimate buy the dip style entry? And lastly would you commit your own real money when you know you are looking to make around 20 pips and pay a 2 pip spread on the entry (i.e. the house has a 10% edge on you)?

If you have been trading for any time at all, the answer of course is NO.

The reality is this style of entry only works in a market which is exhibiting classical trending behavoiur, where the price is moving in and around the trend in a fairly repeatable pattern. Trading the ZLR on any other kind of market is just too risky.

The problem is with the Woodies CCI method, you are trading blind. You are not looking at other related markets to see how price action is behaving; you are not look for support and resistance lines and pivot points to give you a sense of where conditional orders might be clustered; you are not looking for pattern formations in the price (triangles, wedges, channels, etc); you are not look at higher time frame information to get a general sense of the trend; and you are not look at the flow of news and economic indicators to get a general sense of where market sentiment sits in regard to the trend. Trading woodies CCI is kind of like trying to land an aircraft at night with just one instrument – bloody crazy …

Moral of the Story

What I hope the reader will understand from this posting is there is a huge amount of pressure from the retail community that makes them just want to believe that these methods can work – even if the method itself doesn’t work and has no real reason why it should work. All this desire to want to believe just causes them to sink even more cash into it blindly – blaming their own failings as traders rather then understanding why it doesn’t work and using it as an educational experience to actually improve their trading.

Next Article

I am so not off my anti-day trading hobby horse. In my next article I will unpack another day trading system.

www.macrotactics.com

Richard_AZ Says:
May 20, 2008 at 7:18 pm
I’ve read each of the post in this thread and only the tip of the iceberg is actually here.

I’ve had privy to the inside information on how PFG cooked the books to cover for Ken Wood keeping the money raise in behalf of handicapped children. Try as they may, it is very easy to find the truth. Simply look at the number of trading seminars and note the attendance (the attendance numbers are easy to find as the people who attended are still well within the loop of contacts for those investigating the CCI activity) Then call the local Make-A-Wish chapters in the state where the trading seminars were held, then call the national office and compare the numbers. Very simple.

IT DOESN’T TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO SEE A CRIME WAS COMMITTED.
KEN WOOD POCKED A HEFTY SUM OF MONEY THROUGH EXPLOITING HANDICAPPED CHILDREN.

PFG the sponsoring broker responsible to perpetrating this mess has since removed any wording of contributing charitable donations when Woodies Trading Seminars are held. This shows they were not a legitimate group to begin with, but only choose to drop below the radar of the Attorney Generals Office when the heat was turned up. If it was in their hearts to do this to begin with, why stop now? Were the handicapped children used to embellish PFG’s business plan? …. Of course.

How sad to exploit handicapped children for personal monetary gain. How do you feel when you see millionaires like the Wasendorfs, owners of PFG, use disadvantaged children to get richer?

DOES IT MAKE YOU WANT TO PUKE? .. It should.

When considering PFG and Ken Wood and the Woodies CCI Club, we are looking at the worst class of individuals on planet earth. This is the scum your parents warned you about.

If you think Make A Wish foundation wants to bring this negative attention to the surface you are naive. They would rather everyone just forget it has happened. Non-Profits have a difficult time building a base and avoid negative attention at all cost, even if it means the conmen never get exposed.

And if you’re wondering if the I.R.S. got the tax revenue on the missing money from the trading seminars guess again. Do you think that is wrong? Of course it is.

THIS IS HOW CRIMINALS OPERATE

It took me only a short period of time to see Ken Wood does not trade. His behavior is a combination of a conman mixed with someone who never got any attention in their life, who will stoop to do anything to look important including hurting innocent people around him. Forget about the money skimmed off the trading seminars For a moment look at the idea of collecting a disability check yet claiming to make a living at trading… Do you feel that’s wrong? Do feel it’s misleading? Where do you draw the line?

When Ken Wood says he’s been trading for over 30 years, we all need to see that he has never produced a PnL nor a trading statement. Anybody who has been trading that long can produce the necessary document to prove they are the real deal. These con-artists can not find the truth for the same reason a thief can’t find a policeman, they don’t want to.

Through the close associations I had with the CCI club I learned that Woodie in fact does not trade but derives his income from a disability check and not from trading futures. This is a direct contradiction to what he has led members of his CCI club like the late Dr. Famir to believe. No one here has yet to mention how Ken Wood misled Dr. Famir with his trading method and then Dr. Famir lost it all on the Woodies CCI method, then later committed suicide.

I’VE SPOKEN WITH THE FAMILY OF THE LATE DR.FAMIR AND IT’S A SAD STORY FOR KEN WOOD.

If you are wondering why Woodie did not come clean and tell Dr. Famir that he himself can not make his own CCI method work, you are not alone as many of us wonder the same thing. Do you think Dr. Famir would of taken a different approach if he would of known the truth? Dr. Famir’s family feel things would have been much different if Ken Wood would have been honest. Many of us who watched the situation unfold gasped when we learned the truth. It was at this time many traders dropped out of the CCI club. Why didn’t Ken wood just tell Dr. Famir the truth? How do you quantify the depth of misleading a fellow man? And then continue the behavior in light of Dr. Famir death? Some individuals who are void of character feel that because of the nature of how risky commodities are, Ken Wood is not to blame. I disagree and say this is even more reason to be truthful and honest, there is no excuse for misleading another person;
IT’S CALLED LYING

THE AUDACITY OF KEN WOOD KNOWS NO END.

There are many conmen in the world like Ken Wood and if the problem was limited to just him it would be a simpler issue, but the problem compounds when unknowing new traders step up to the plate to help promote the deceptions. Their actions just promote the fraud even further. Keep in mind no-one in the Woodies CCI Club ever has posted an actual PnL or a trading statement validating that what Ken Wood says is true.. So Ken Wood is not alone on the fraud issue, these low life, attention starved moderators are just as bad.

Woodies moderators need to know they are scum just like Ken Wood. You are a fool to associate with someone who is thief and a liar and misleads another human being.

WHEN YOU HELP PROMOTE A CROOK YOU ARE AN ACCESSORY TO THE CRIME AND DERSERVE THE SAME PUNISHMENT.

If you truly think it’s wrong for millionaires to exploit children for person gain…

If you have grown tired of seeing just how far this crook is going to continue …

If you wish to bring closure to the criminal activity, then join others who have reported the fraudulent activity of Ken Wood to the Arizona Attorney Generals Office.

Here is the address to send your concerns:
Terry Goddard – Arizona Attorney General
Special Investigation
c/o Robert Rivera
1275 West Washington
Phoenix, AZ 85007

If you feel you need to drop Ken a line and let him know what a great guy he is, here is his address,

Ken Wood
41627 N. Panther Creek Trail
Anthem, AZ 85086

On behalf of innocent children who can not defend themselves who been used and exploited at the hands of callous individuals…
And on behalf of families like those of the late Dr. Famir who have suffered the brunt of being misled by dishonesty.

Thank you for helping bring closure to this long overdue saga.

source = thelonelytrader.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/is-woodie-a-fraud

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We all have to learn before the cost becomes too expensive.  Learn from others experiences or learn the hard way on your own.  I will not use their names unless they want me to.  So far only Rev want to use his name so as to warn & protect others in the Traders helping Traders concept from being taken advantage of or that may fall for the snake oil.  With all the thousands of traders from around the world that I have know here at the CCI Club, not one has shown to be profitable with this basic CCI, NOT EVEN Woodie.

I will be happy post if someone wants to send evidence that it is profitable & after I check to make sure the results are not gaffed.

Maybe someday ~ But for now out of the hundreds of emails ~ not one.

This trading industry is infested with conman looking for fresh fish or newbies to hook.  Conman that don’t trade what they sell & only make their money off of the masses willing to buy a dream off them.  Warning ~ Falling for these conman leads to loss of money, destroying the family & lives have been lost by this blind following of these crooks.  The industry tolerates it because they like the fresh money it takes to keep this industry going.  You only need to investigate how many funds go out of business as well only to start up under another name.

As the world trades &

CCI plot thickens

Rev was hired to write Woodies book for him.  While interviewing many people in the course of writing this book, new things started to come to light.  Here is just another rock over turned.

CCI emails from others & their experiences ~

Learn from others experiences or learn the hard way.  Here are some of the many emails for you to learn from…

I logged into the basic room today just to see what’s going on these days. Half of woodies comments were aimed at getting new traders to buy the dvds, sign up for a trade along and get set up with PFG. Merchandising, Merchandising  - Chaching! Should be renamed “Traders helping woodie”.

Hi Mplay, I also got burned w/ trading the damn patterns. You were one of those few that I really
learned somethings from. Your Options recordings were priceless and sorry to find they’re gone… Ive read
emailes sent to you and I have the same question with one of those folks: realizing all these under table
stuff going on in the chatroom, and knowing that even woodie himself not trading futures, why would other 2
most respected traders XXX and YYY would still be there, and they both are trading way different than
just the damn patterns…  My last question is: you said your using other methodology thats really working, not including CCI or
using 50 CCI. Are you planning to share your methodology, would love to learn from you…
Best Regards and Wishes

I saw you several years ago at a tradealong in Anaheim, back when I was still actively trading. Unfortunately, I never could make the CCI profitable and had to give up on trading. I came across your website today, and am interested in your Trading options book – is this available now, and how would I purchase it?

After I quit the wcci club site many months ago, I lost track of you as I did not go back into the room, although I was not banned.  I learned quickly in my career that the only true indicator is the price moving up and down a bar. The room was personally distracting to me and I could not tolerate it.I read through your site that outlines the problems at the wcci, and my sentiments are found there.  Are you planning a room sometime in the future?  If so, I would like to know about it. Best of wishes to you in your endeavors

When I had discovered you were gone from Woodie’s I had a terrible sinking feeling of loss.  I can only imagine the hurt that you have felt after working for years helping and teaching others.  You are missed, MPlay.  If you are sending out e-mails, I would love to be on your list.CCI was my hope of financial survival. I’m now wondering what others are doing to profit from the markets.Thank you Mplay for all that you have added to the WCCIClub.

Oh my gosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a sigh of relief to come across this sight…. I coded and coded and coded and coded and coded the ZLR on
volume, minute, range, tick, second charts…  It took soooooo long….and I thought I was just ‘inept’
because IT JUST WASN’T PROFITABLE….  I kept thinking, “Why can’t I do this right?”.  It
shouldn’t be coming up UNPROFITABLE.  It should be coming up EXTREMELY PROFITABLE….
Well…. after going over my coding with a fine tooth comb again and again and again….I wasn’t doing anything
wrong….The F—-N thing just wasn’t profitable… Please post this so I feel that all that time I spent
coding and backtesting and feeling like an idiot wasn’t for nothing, that at least someone may come across this and it
will ease their pain in some way….
Thank you so much… And PLEASE, keep me every and ALL of your mailing lists and sendings.. Thank you and God Bless you….

Greetings, I commend you for having the courage to freely express your opinions of WCCI.
I have been observing the daily chats for the past three months. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of purchasing Woodies’ DVD lesson series. Poor production: long charts shown when Woodie is discussing a short trade; advertised as “high definition” – yes Mr. Woodie is taped in crystal clear def but the charts are not and sometimes the cameraman tapes the trading screen from ACROSS the room as Woodie talks/points; advertised as six hours long and it really only plays a bit over five hours; Woodie is advertised as trading the Hang Seng but don’t be fooled because it’s clearly sim trading; and plenty of discussions where Woodie says something important but never elaborates with the details. Buyer beware especially when Woodie opines that WCCI is free yet the WCCI Traders University Index discussion board no longer stores important info about the patterns and the PFG WCCI pdf document is out of date.
Woodies’ business model would make a fascinating graduate business school case study…it’s a free site but you need to buy the DVDs and PFG Navigator/account to supposedly succeed; you can’t complain or pose an intellectual question b/c the chat room is free and Woodie might be very cranky and ban your IP address; and best of all, a business model based on  – protected by? – charitable donations. Anybody ever seen a check presented to Make A Wish during a Trade A Long seminar? Or maybe a WCCI web page that highlights the WCCI/Traders Education LLP’s total annual donations to MAW?
Last night, I read a WCCI forum post by ClinTX. Earlier this month he decided to leave WCCI and stop trading b/c he was not profitable. This was very sad to hear. KeithFLA is standing aside. He still moderates but says he has too many other things “going on” to be trading at the present time.  It is all very confusing but after looking at your site I will trust my intuition and move on.

Interesting read as the CCI plot thickens. I had no idea that this was what it was. Only discovering CCI last May 07, I still am a newbie to all this but I guess my timing was probably for the good. A motto I have recently adopted ” Timing is Everything” seems to apply here. Still have much interest on when and where you will decide to have daily thoughts and ideas for all to share. Maybe a blog site or forum but always looking to further my trading interests and share ideas with other traders. I also am interested in your book. Where do I get info on purchasing a copy?

Sports website described your trials and tribulations with Too Tall W.
He is still going strong and will be presenting his revolutionary CCI Navigator in NYC at the Traders
Expo.I live in NJ so will be there . I was with Woodie when he first started out on Paltalk–in those days everything was used
cci, stochastics,rsi etc and W was a different W —it was a Democracy and a good place for a beginner to
benefit from others.. Actually, for some reason cci divergences were working better.
I was a novice then and now of course use price support/resistance, fibs etc. However, any oscillator
divergences are still useful when confirmed and I still use them. I spent a little time with Dr Bob who
was not my favorite co-trader. If you want to write a book about the whole amateur trader industry I could
provide some chapters on the characters in it . Your presentations were good and useful for me so
thought you would appreciate this information.

Hi Mike.  You probably don’t remember me from the old room, but I remember all that you did for the entire group. Thank you. I’m sorry for your recent trouble, but glad to see you get away and on a new path. I appreciate hearing that I wasn’t crazy when I decided that cci as taught in the room was not a valid method.  I thought I was just hopeless since I couldn’t make the system profitable. Thanks again for all you did and tried to do.  Good luck

I read your article about CCI myth, it is very interesting and Im glad you share these information with us. Im with the club for  18 months and I had the same result with  “take dam patterns approach”, but I improved my result with nuances that I implemented into the system. I believe that CCI is as any other indicator , but if the trader is serious about the trading he can use it as well. Sorry for my English Im fromEurope, and I hope you will come back to Prague one more time.

When I developed the patterns/strategies for Tradestation I compared my results against what was posted on the Website.  I found that there was issues with the trades taken on the website.  Such as this time taking the trade when there was a profit and next time don’t take the trade if there is a loss even though the conditions were the same.  Also exits for profits were posted where there were no ticks.  In addition there were trades where the pattern was posted but the pattern was invalid.  I emailed Woodie about these issues.  He said it was because my charts were different.  I emailed him back that I was using the charts from the website.  He emailed back that he would check into it.  I did not press the issue because there was not benefit for me.

I just came back from a vacation break over the New Year to see that you have been quietly removed from Woodies site.
Your contributions in the Options room and forum, and your Options Presentations were priceless jewels in the club.
I hope you have kept the material from the forum and your presentations! It was a shock and a feeling of great loss to see that you were no longer there.  With a little difficulty I managed to retrace my way to your website and
fill in the dots between the wall of silence at the CCI club. Your points are well taken. Interestingly, I had already read the Tucker
report that you mention. I have seen other great contributors like yourself quietly disappear. It is
such a tremendous loss when this happens. Imagine the value of an open forum  which could keep hold of such people. Is it possible? Could a website/chatroom be developed without any misleading agendas? A forum where the great “ex-Woodie”s could feel comfortable? Please keep me on your mailing list and let me know if you see any future possibility for such a
forum/site as mentioned above.

Well it seems that you have been badly mistreated by the WCCI crew after all your hard work and help you have offered fellow traders in the forum, and at the Trade Alongs and Seminars. I have read the accusations that you make about Woodie and his CCI patterns on your website and I confess that you have me very disturbed indeed.

I started getting involved with trading about 14 months back and considered myself very lucky to stumble upon the CCI club quite quickly, about 3 weeks after getting involved with the business.

I have been studying it ever since and up until now, luckily I have only been paper trading but never shown a profit. However I have diligently studied all the information in the WCCI forum and in particular XXXX posts which I have read and reread over and over, I have recently started taking mentoring sessions with XXXXX  and I hope that I can get to see in an improvement in my results soon.

I have given up my job and even moved countries to carry on studying the CCI so I have definitely committed myself.

Please call me naïve but I just cannot see people such as xxx yyy &  zzzz who all seem to be exceptionally talented and successful traders that constantly and openly thank Woodie for his room and the CCI, lying to cover up for someone you claim to be a false prophet (or profitJ ).

I am currently in the process of backtesting the range bars, so far I have the last 14 months documented  and I have to admit Mike that so far I am not impressed, they seem to perform really well when the markets are tanking as they are now, but when the markets are in a normal range ie the Russel in a 8 to 10 point range then they just do not perform well together with the CCI in my opinion.

I don’t know Mike, now I am so confused and I really wish I had not read the post on your website – I could just carry on and expect that as I learn more with the CCI eventually I will become profitable, but now I have my doubts.

All I can do is carry on with my backtesting and see where it leads me…the truth will out through my stats…..

However if you know of something better then please please let me know,

Yes. there was only 2 people in there. but maybe it was server issues. I can try again. but if your not there dont see a reason to hang out there. what tipped me off was your IC videos were gone. I sent someone there to learn options. i dont understand why woodie throw people out who have contributed so much over the years. Seems to be a recurring theme with him.

No surprise, really, as cult mentality people like Woodie have to adhere to a strict code of “information control” to keep his sheep in line.  No critical thinking allowed by the followers.  I just moved on … realized it was pointless to stay in there and try to help others — they need to figure it out for themselves, as most do, eventually.. .. and I had Woodie pull anything off the website that had my name on it.  If/when woodie finally disappears, there are dozens of other cult-leaders willing to fill his shoes, and fleece the newbies. Just always good to hear when another leaves… so, cheers, Mike!… and best wishes to you in your future trades!

I just came across info on what happen in woodie’s room. I’m very sorry to hear that. So many good traders
left his room. That is too bad that he treat people helping him this way. Thank you for all your help and
,what I learn from you. All the best to you in 2008.

Having been out of the country for several weeks, I decided to revisit your options courses as a refresher. And you were no longer in the Socks/Options Room. I was told you weren’t there anymore.  Fortunately I’d book marked your website. I’d like to know what you will be doing. I like your courses and your manner of teaching. And if I’m off on the wrong track I want to know about it.  Being an Optionetics veteran I have been battered and bruised enough.

Hope you’re doing ok and bouncing back from all the shenanigans you’ve had to deal with.  Please keep me on your email list.  Your recent writings have really hit home!!!!!!!

What a breath of fresh air to see that you have finally made the break from the woodie cult.Don’t know if you remember but I wrote you a while back questioning the validity of the cci.At the time you were reluctant to say anything negative about the club but I got the feeling youreally wanted to say more but couldn’t because of the dictator.I have been with the cci club since the paltalk days and I have consistently lost money tryingto make the damned cci work as taught by woodie and his apparently unquestioning followers.Over time I have seen all the really good traders banished from the club, like Rover, TW, Gio, Paul etc..etc..etcbut I still was made to think the problem was with me because woodie and his followers are so unwaveringand unquestioning in their faith in the cci.I have also seen the club become more and more commercialized over the years and to me it has completely lostthat ‘trader helping trader’ feel.In any event. The options room and your imput there was the only reason I was still with the club and nowthat you have left I have no reason to stay. That was the last straw for me.Please put me on your mailing list and keep me posted as to what is going on.All the best,

What follows are some things I’ve noticed by listening and evaluating things I’ve seen/heard in Woodie’s chat rooms:

1. Woodie absolutely disdains any dissenting opinions.  You cannot talk outside the boundaries of what he teaches – period.
2. Woodie doesn’t entertain ANY deviations from what he teaches.
3. Ironically, several moderators, including Woodie at times, appear to use price bars when evaluating setups.
4. Recently, Woodie has moved to range bars.  Now, I find this an interesting turn of events for several reasons:
   1. Woodie consistently says CCI time bars puts one into a trade 1, or more, time periods before the rest of the crowd.
   2. If Woodie has this edge, what’s the need of moving to range bars?  I have never heard this explained.
   3. And finally, didn’t Woodie just release a set of DVD’s?  I’d bet a LOT of money that the DVD’s are based upon time bars and not range bars.  If that’s the case, then wouldn’t a “new” person get confused after viewing DVD’s and then moving to the chat room where only range bars are used now?
   4. Interestingly, since Lotus uses Tradestation, she wouldn’t be able to moderate with range bars as TS doesn’t offer them.

As a result of the last set of points, I’ve had to stop listening in on the chat room.  It’s distracting.  I use Tradestation and won’t move off of it (I’m used to the way it works and am comfortable with the order entry system).

sorrry to hear you hadda go through that kinda abuse to see that Woodies CCI does not work (esp the way they teach it)…. but glad to see yer out.   I cringe when I think of all the thousands of people that loose money trying to do what woodie said to do… and he keeps advertising… now I see he’s got a video CD set for sale (no refunds, of course).  Caveat emptor, for sure.

I heard from a friend that something happened in woodies room between you and woodie….surprise, surprise……sorry to hear. I dont know why he chases off all the good traders…….that is why I only stop in there now and then….too much BS all the time.

I have been in and out of the Woodie rooms for about 2 years now, I’ve been trying to make it in futures this whole time, since Woodie made it seem so “simple” by “just trading the patterns”. But I have not been able to make the CCI work the way woodie teaches.
However, I have tuned in whenever I have a chance. Whenever you, or one of the good veterans were moderating. And I have seen many of them leave the room. All of the people I liked listening to eventually left for “one reason or another”. I kind of had an idea something like that was going on. But I didn’t know it was like that! With the whole fiasco toward you, your book and the monkeys! (Man, and I was really excited about your book coming out soon too! I figure it will be the best place to start with options.)  You are the last of the “great veterans of trading” that were left in the room. Your moderation has been greatly enlightening to me.
I thought it was just a lack of insight on my part not being able to make “basic CCI” work. And then I recall about 2-3 years ago you, gb, and some others that were doing some interesting things to get a good result. I remembered the stuff you talked about in Vegas the first time I knew anything about the club, and it all started to make sense. You guys were doing stuff, and looking at stuff in a way that couldn’t be talked about in his room. Or original stuff that use to be in the room, that Woodie no longer allows.
So it was just recently that I realized I needed to learn these “nuances” that the good moderators were hinting at, but could not readily talk about in the open. I then went to my 3rd trade-a-long just this last November, searching for the “inside scoop” about what the veterans were doing to make their money. To learn about the “nuances”, that the veterans knew and couldn’t talk about. A few were generous enough to share what they do. I was shocked to find that the people that were making money in the club were not only trading the market Woodie says not to trade! But they were using, and doing the things that moderators that were “banned” or left, were doing. Things that were being shared in the room years ago but now are censored and harder to unearth information about.  I appreciate these people that were telling me these things in confidence.
I only traded live once and lost just a little bit of money and vowed I will never trade again until I’ve defined a system that works, backtested the heck out of it, and then forward tested it until I know it inside out. It seemed in the room, kind of like I should learn futures first for income, and then go to options. But in this past year as I was in your room, I wondered if this was actually true.
Considering that futures wasn’t working for me, and I had learned enough to realize that your approach and method is outstanding. Including the fact you make complicated things simpler to learn, I just recently started reading up on your stocks/options forum and got halfway through your second options video, and now poof! They make you disappear in an instant without a trace on the website. I still can’t believe it happened like that! (For sure now, all the people that were hanging around the club trying to help people from losing money, are gonna leave.)
So I would love to learn from you. If you could put me on your E-mail list, to let me know if your in a room right now, about any workshops you have, and if there is anything left from your work that they’ve removed that I could go through, I’d appreciate it. (I realize now I probably should have focused more on the options part, but I thought it was just over my head. I guess it was an oversight on my part!) Also, if there is anything you could key me in on what to look at in my backtesting, if it is at all possible, to make CCI work in futures, would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry this is so long. But I totally appreciate the time and insight I’ve gotten from you. And considering your recent experiences, that it is, important that I take the time to I relay my experiences about the club. Both the frustration and the cool people I’ve met and have actually shared unselfishly, along the way.
Well, thank you for all your time. I, as I am sure are many of us, are behind you!

I used to be one of them, but could never verify the trades either. I was in a whole group in Chicago, they couldn’t either.I stayed with the site just to follow your talks and notes.  Put me on your list again. Send me updates. Your treatment by CCI is not uncommon as you know, many have been sacrificed before. Best Wishes, Happy New Year

was just looking at your side and i’m very sorry to read all this. It seems very difficult to keep the top people together in this club. In case you lost me , here I am again , waiting for your book. I wish you a very happy New Year and many thanks for all the work you did sofar.

Well, well, well…… I guess I was not too far off in my conclusions outlined in my email last night. I appreciate you sharing the history of this in your reply. I left Woodies site many years ago after having contributed in a small way, but I was literally horrified when many of the good people at the time began to disappear. Names like drBob, Gio, Dax, r7, Earl from Arizona and other’s I don’t remember at this time. I was castigated by Woodie one evening by even asking a question that would have required a reply from him that was not out of his protocol. I remember sharing my thoughts with xxxxx who confirmed what I suspected but did so in a rather diplomatic fashion. Needless to say, separation from Woodie is kind of like the inevitable divorce……..people know it is going to happen, they just don’t know when. It’s not productive for me at this point to rehash the negative side of Woodie and his gang. The positive side of this is that is has been a way for me to be introduced to some people I’ve learned a lot from and have helped me develop in my trading. I’ll just leave the rest of the review of Woodie at this point – don’t want to do it again!!!!I have always had the greatest respect for you since we got to know each other and probably have a greater personal concern for you that I would have for other people that I’ve developed at least a communication relationship with.

Thanks for the quick candid reply. I’m sorry that the Woodie team caused such destruction. I’m glad I didn’t get “sucked” into the CCI club. I looked at it but read alot of other information by others such as DrBob and Dennis Bolze. Thanks for keeping me on the list – I appreciate that. I have looked into options several times and never felt comfortable with them or that I knew what I was doing, so I look forward to your book.  All the best for 2008 and beyond.

I sent an earlier email and suppose that it may have been dumped with your site.  I want to thank you for your help.  It is inspirational to find that thereare people who want to help with no ulterior motives other thanto help and if can also raise some funds for charity provide a  “win-win” benefit to all I am one who has spent countless hours and funds in the futile chaseof the grail only to become disappointed when at the end of the search, to find that I am back at the beginning. I have always found your advice to be accurate and appreciate yourinsights and would like to be included in the future if you should decide to pursue a group setting.

Just read your comments on the CCI patterns and the behavior of that despicable  little man who runs the joint.
As a former member of the club and a rather novice trader at the time I like many others were hanging off his every word. I began to get a
little suspicious about the stated success of the patterns as I began experimenting and talking with others (DrBob, Dharma and others) about
adjusting length settings, volume charts etc.  Of course, DrBob and others were subsequently booted for daring to
challenge the great man, so many of us just followed DrBob to his room and traded out of there while freely exchanging ideas and strategies. As an Australian, my time zone is out of whack with you guys in the US and I  gradually  withdrew from the US based rooms and now trade local markets with a few Aussie buddies in our own time zone. I did however learn a lot from people in the CCI rooms (when allowed) and of course made many friends. DrBob and I still contact each other via email and Skype to swap notes on approaches we share although applied to different markets. As for CCI, it’s just an indicator based on past events despite our
friend’s insistence on it being a leading indicator with some magical predictive qualities based on patterns. Just pure crap.
I wanted at the time to learn more about Options trading but was rather overwhelmed with trying to break even trading Index Futures back in the CCI days. Things have gone quite well for me over the past 2 years or so and I have made some good dough. However, I have only one Index Futures market to trade in this time zone and that is the S&P200 or SPI as it is known locally and I am looking to branch out into either FX  or Options. I will keep your Web Site bookmarked and check in regularly to see if  I can learn something.

THANK-YOU for your candor and honesty I was disenchanted wth woodies TAL  too many fillers , bs ,and solicitations –  why does he not do a audit of the  success and failure of people in the room trading futures I am trying the 50 cci  thanks for your options series -my intro to options

Anyway, I’m a member of Woodie’s CCI Club and this summer, just before I started to like pure price action, I thought WCCI was the way for me. The reason why I migrated to price action was that WCCI didn’t work for me. I tried to do a manual backtest of a few first months in 2007 on the YM, 5min charts, and the results were not positive. I tried very hard, I tried numerous money management combinations, I tried to filter the trades by nuances as per xxxx’s advices. It did improve my results but they still weren’t positive. And even if they were, the systems I arrived at were discretionary, and also something completely different from WCCI. Definitely contrary to the idea that WCCI is a mechanical, winning system that works on all time frames and all markets. I never really understood how people in the club could trade it profitably. At least as far as markets other than trendy ER2 go. I have never seen anyone faking the stats – but it’s also true that I wasn’t really watching. I knew a lot of strange ideas being taught there. When I read the tuckerreport.com article 2 days ago, I felt its author was reading my mind. I even feel a bit ashamed that I didn’t stand up and say anything in the chat rooms or the forum.

So why do you think is he doing it? Do you really think that he’s being paid by the clickthrus, website traffic, and the advertisement of companies like PFG etc.?

I was starting to learn the CCI and downloaded all your option class to learn.  Then today, someone in the forum ask about Ninja Trader.  I responded that I was very happy with NT.  I get to use it for free until I’m ready to trade live and the brokers that accepts NT charged me $4.75 per contract with free data.  I’ve told someone that and Woodie got mad and booted me.  PFG was charging me $8.00 per contract and $99 for data.  I truly think that Woodie might be getting paid by them because he keeps on insisting everyone to use PFG.  If I trade 10 contracts per day, that’s an extra $3,350 in commission a month.  If he can get 400 people in his room to keep using PFG, that’s $1.34 million a month.  After I got booted, I was very upset.  Then I did a google search and found so many people got booted from him for speaking the truth.  I hope you keep your website strong so people can see both side of Woodies CCI.

I’ve always liked your style and honesty about the trading business. so keep up the good work.

Happy Holidays and good luck in the future.

I was surprised to see you ‘disappear’ so suddenly from the club. The last Vegas seminar was the turning point for me also. After 3 years,
I’ve learned a lot from you and others, but the constant reinventing of the cci wore on me. Thank you for selfless contributions of time and
knowledge and look forward to seeing you in the future.

I just quickly read your updated web pages. Not big surprise for me at all !! Honestly I have to say : Y have big credit
in my eyes !!!  I fully support you, U said clearly a lot of “said” facts about “side way” industry.
I trust  only my trading plan. And I know, why a lot of people are loosing money. they are buying only dreams. I hate these sellers. Most of them are only marketing guys, they didnt trade their own account or max. very small one. They build their income mainly from teaching and what is really said, sometimes it is bulllshits and misleading hints. but be positive :
Mike, I wish you and your family  Merry Xmass and Happy New Year. !!

I Googled you and found your site. I’m sorry but woodie is a travesty. I shut his site off in Hot Commthe first day that he got on the site and said “we don’t need no stinging prices in this room to tradesuccessfully. All you need is the CCI.” I told (xxx) that I would be careful dealing with thishuckster. Be gone Satan.

Woodie banning you really sucks. You have done so much for the club and speaking at the TAL’s. I think your work is invaluable and I’m glad I got to read it. I made a document on your ideas and still think your 1-2-3 exit is great. He threw me out of the room a
couple of weeks ago for the day because he thought I was complaining. I wasn’t. Got a supportive email from
PFGNeil about it. I noticed from your testing that non CCI systems did better than CCI systems. Hope you will decide to release some non CCI systems so I can keep trading. Still interested in futures. Whatever you decide, I know you will be successful.
Please email me when the book comes out or you decide about your trading systems.

Just wanted to drop you a message of support.  I enjoyed your training/lecture videos and am sorry to see that others will not benefit from them.  As you know, this type of thing has happened before and because of these situations, useful material just vanishes from the site once the author becomes “disavowed”.  I got fed up with the attitude at WCCI Club and do not visit there much anymore.  As for the indicator, I was never able to put it to much use.

sorry to know that you`re banned from the room….it`s like  ” animal farm” over at woodies, he must feel threatened and run the best off.
do you still use the cci? any other indicators?       Mike, you`re a great teacher and i hope you stay with that….keep in touch, and i`ll be looking for your book.

CCI Patterns Myth

Well we’re back.  After having my website attacked here, we have to conclude that this information cannot be a good thing for Woodie CCI, & he is willing to do anything to keep the people from learning so that they can make up their own minds.  They would rather play these games, rather than let you get the strategy & let you decide if it has any validity.  He would much rather continue the cult like domination of only what he allows will be discussed or seen.  Everyone must have total obedience to his sales pitch or suffer the wrath.   So they have deleted this monkey from the forum site & they have crashed my website so you can’t see it or use it as well as files for my book.

My book has had catastrophic set backs with this cyber attack on me.  Many of the files that were to be put out with the book have been destroyed.  If you have contacted me before thru the old info at mplayoptions email, that whole list was also destroyed as well during this attack.  Please resend to info at mplayoptions email.  I wonder if there are laws against cyber terror like this?  What do you call people that would destroy things meant to raise money for charity for their own selfish sick agenda to hide the truth.

Trading is too difficult a business without the egos getting involved.  You should never trade anything  you can’t prove that at least it has some hope of working.  This business is all about the numbers & only the numbers and  not about who can yell loudest.  So what can be so bad about seeing the truth?

Some of you have been looking for my Xmas present that sparked all this insanity.  This is my Christmas gift to the club that many of you have been waiting for.  I guess this present didn’t go over as well maybe because it exposes how bad CCI really is.  This business should have nothing to do with egos.  It is  the numbers that really matter.  But I wanted to share it with the members & you can do what you want with it.  It’s your business & you must make up your own minds.  It may save so many a lot of money & time.  I was going to have a class on how to use this program  better.  It got canceled.  Don’t look at me, the cover up is not my doing.  So here it is anyway.

No real money is to be used with these programs ~   Woodies Basic CCI ZLR Zip

All the appropriate disclaimers & warnings & more apply.  No guarantees, no promises,  no nothing applies.  It’s strictly for educational purposes only.  No real money is to be used with this program.  Youbetter make sure of your numbers before you use real money with CCI setups or anything.

Check back later.   I will post the coded setups that can be used in TradeMaven.

If you have the code in other software formats & want to share then you can send it to me here.

I can post all the emails & meeting recordings, but people will still believe what they want to believe.

Merry Christmas & all that happy stuff.

Well its that time of year again.  Another year gone & another year older & another year will begin.  So many have been waiting for this, and since I put in so much work on it, I thought I would share it.  So ,as my xmas gift to all our members, I am releasing the Basic Woodies CCI ZLR Monkey.  I coded it based in consultation with Woodie & his specifications & the published document.  You will need to have Trade Navigator to run it.  You can share with someone or get a trial version to give it a try.  You can get the trial & that should be more than enough to load this code up & run a test on all the markets you want. This will also auto execute & do all the trading for you.  It should only auto execute in a paper account.  So you almost don’t have much to do.  All you have to do is

No real money is to be used with these programs ~   Woodies Basic CCI ZLR Zip

click here to download the file to your computer, unzip it if its the zipped version, import it into Trade Navigator as a Library & your ready to use it & back test as much as you want.   This code should be the proof you need to make a rational decision on CCI patterns and  not based on anyone’s word.

You can back test the ZLR for decades on any market within seconds to see how it would have done.  You can run it on any market & almost any time frame.  You can make any and all the changes to it you want to fit your style.  You can setup & use your own stops & targets & exits or whatever you like.  I chose the ZLR because it does better than the other patterns.  So I picked only the best for xmas.  Let me know how you improve it & how you do with your testing or if you can make it profitable somehow. Keep in mind, the sales pitch it’s good on any market & any time frame.

After all, you have no business trading real money if you can’t make paper money.  If you are trading real money without extensive back test results or good evidence that you have an edge, then let me just say (since its xmas time) you don’t belong in this business.  This Monkey will help the thousands of you who simply will not do the painful meticulous work of back testing to see how well something works.

I have refused Woodie’s demands that this not go public with the CCI Monkeys so that people can see the truth for themselves.  This is what many of you have been waiting for.  The ability to see how good or bad these CCI patterns are.  Something that doesn’t change its rules to make itself look better.  Something that will not drop or over look losses to improve its results.  Something that will not make excuses why all of sudden a win should be included to make the results better.  But now as you can see,  I have become the slandered for sharing this with you and for sharing different ideas with members without his permission.  You have all seen this cult like attitude to attack anyone who would even dare to question him in anyway.  Because of this cult attitude I have seen so many thousands disappear quietly after losing so much money, many feeling they can’t do something, when it’s not them at all.  But now you can see & decide on the facts & not someone’s opinion.  The truth is out here.

There are now people who went out to their own groups to prove CCI for themselves only to substantiate my findings with their own code.  What is difficult for me to believe is that some of these people are now charging other members money to teach them what they learned doesn’t work & that they themselves do not use.  That just seems wrong to me & I don’t want anything to do with that kind of club.  I will not have anything to do with lies like the ones that surrounded the 100 club.  That is why I also had to shut it down & made sure that every penny was returned to each member.  When I returned from my vacation & heard of all the lies that he told to the members only to get their money was completely unacceptable to me.  I can only guess how many local, state(s), federal & international laws he broke with all those lies.  There was no way I would have anything to do with something like that.  I thought that it was an isolated situation, but now I’m seeing that it is much deeper & consistent than I had thought.  People need to be very careful in this industry.

In keeping with the old spirit of the club, I have never charged anyone anything.  I have never charged any member any money for anything. I only do this to help traders & to raise money for charity.  So the program is FREE.  However, some of you know that I hosted a small group meeting here in Vegas before the TAL where we discussed all kinds of trading ideas.  Yes, we actually discussed things that were not CCI & things that really worked.  Most of you know this cult like attitude that only what Woodie allows to be talked about in his rooms is to perpetuate his CCI patterns.  This meeting we had met with his wrath because it examined many other ideas that were far superior to CCI patterns exposed CCI patterns as crap.

But what is more important is we raised some money for charity since the main TAL doesn’t anymore.  After the expenses were covered,  I then personally matched the money left over (& more) & it all went to Toys for Tots. Since the main TAL has dropped the charity.  If you have no evidence that anything really works, you should not be wasting money on it.  You need that money for yourself & your family not throwing away on all the crap & crooks out there in this industry.  Give it to charity & do some good if you really want to give it away.

My  wife & I did our annual thing of each getting a big shopping cart & filling them completely up with toys & delivering them to Toys for Tots.  We also made a cash donation to Toys for Tots because the older kids are  usually left out.  We will usually do it again if we see the firemen collecting toys for the children’s burn unit of our local hospital.  We just wanted to lead by example.  We really do what we say, not just sell it.

If this letter and or this ZLR coded setup has shown you the truth & helped you save thousands of dollars & the months & months of time to do a good back test,  then you too can help with some of the charities I support.  You will find the links to the charities that I support here on my website at the bottom of any of my pages. You got to see the trunk monkeys here. They are a riot.

Merry Christmas 2 all & 2 all a good nite.

No real money is to be used with these programs ~   Woodies Basic CCI ZLR Zip

It was only a few hundred years ago that most of the planet was convinced the earth was flat until they saw the truth.  The same applies here.  When I came by a few years ago, I saw so many people here that I instantly thought  maybe there was something to it because of the sheer numbers..  When we are the “new” people we just don’t realize the thousands & thousands who have been used up or burned up & run out over the years.  So as they see the light & move on, the circle of life continues.

The fact is CCI is no better or worse than any other indicator.  I personally like the longer 50 or even the longer CCI lengths seem to have more validity to me.  To me, the basic CCI patterns are just gibberish or something to sell to the masses to increase traffic count at the websites where the real money is made on clicks & counts & links & banners & endorsements.  But in the mean time, real  people are wasting money & priceless time to learn the truth.  So many feel they are incompetent because they can t make it work when so many others are given the illusion it’s working  for them.  Now they can plug in the code & see that it was never them in the first place, but these patterns instead.

My arrival also happened in a period of history where my early hand testing showed some interesting numbers over the immediate short period.  I liked the concept of traders helping traders & keeping the crooks away from cheating our members , and also  money was being raised for charity back then.  So I stayed for awhile.  I, like others who have been around for a while & know the score,  quietly tried to educate the traders on alternatives like diversification, options, and  having a good plan, that have been tested based on money management, risk reward & controlling risk.  We tried to keep the members from being taken by this pattern crap.  Nothing else is needed & it works on all markets & all time frames & so on & so on with no snake oil involved.

But by our staying around to try to keep people from losing money on these patterns, we give him our creditability to attract even more new people. A salesman who is selling nothing has no creditability.  It was the hundreds of people who hung around for their own various reasons who gave him that creditability to sell all those links, clicks, chat rooms & so on.  We are the traffic count that brings in the real money for him.  That is why now at the club, we see people are now badgered by Woodie if they don’t support the companies that pay him.  You may have noticed that his sponsors are much more expensive.  Where do you think that extra money they charge if funneled to?  Now, its even turn on your web browser even if you are not there or don’t care,  so he can show his clients how many people he can get into the room for them & that they should pay more to have access to the club.

Now the new & improved sales pitch is range bars.  Forget all the money  you lost on the old stuff that didn’t work in the past, this will be great.  NOTICE there are NO verifiable results AGAIN.  Watch the sales spin on this one as you see it evolve.  Btw, I have worked with range bars in the past.   I know range bars & they are NO UTOPIA,  & you BETTER wait for the verifiable results because this will be another nightmare.  You heard it here first.  You would think  the sales department over there should have checked with the trading department about, this latest plan & should have did a wait a minute.  You are now going to set a range for these “patterns” on a market that is constantly changing its range & volatility from day to day.  Right, OK, lets see how the sales pitch goes on that now.

I was also sent in link to another site that also addresses these issues.   http://tuckerreport.com/articles/magic-indicator/ Check it out & if you come across similar info at other sites,  send them in Ill add them here.  I want you to have as much info as possible to make up your own mind.

I don’t want this to be an attack only site.  But Woodie has gone to great lengths to silence me & not allow the members to get anything not approved there at his site.  I want this the be an honest & fair discussion of CCI & if these Woodie patterns have any validity to them.  I will gladly post any evidence that Basic CCI works.  I’m not even asking that it has to work on every time frame & every market.  Anyone that has been in this business for more than a month knows how ridiculous that sales pitch is.  I have asked numerous times yet not one has come forward yet.

If you have other code for other software then you can send it in & Ill share it with the rest of the traders.  That’s traders helping traders not just trying to fool them.  I will also accept hand tests or real results that come with the rules.  I will verify that the rules are strictly followed & no losers are omitted nor that winners are slipped in to improve results.  If they happen to make it profitable then I will happily post them here for all to see.  Then as it should be people will make up their own minds as to whether something works or doesn’t.

We can start this kind of analysis on any & all indicators that you may want to look into.  No limitations will be set.  There is so much phony crap out there & its long time we debunked as much of it as possible.  Trust no one especially if they have already fooled so many.  You must do your own numbers & then recheck that before you go off & risk or throw any money at anything.

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